On January 23rd, Natasha met online with Antoine Hunter, Purple Fire Crow, in a public event with the Disability Cultural Center simply titled "Creative Healing with Natasha Thomas." Antoine is a phenomenal Black Deaf Dancer and Performance Artist who served as a mentor to Natasha during the Emerge Fellowship. Emerge was what financed our ability to get the BCH Album off the ground, and we're so grateful to Purple Fire Crow for being willing to facilitate the discussion of this work in the DCC forum! We had a phenomenal team of interpreters for the event, and a full video of the discussion can be accessed here. Do be advised that while each track's music video was screenshared live for the event, the video transcript prioritizes the ASL interpreters and you cannot see the videos there. That's part of why we've created an asynchronous "read & view" version for folks to engage with here. 

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What follows are some text based excerpts of the conversation's most essential passes, only slightly edited for brevity and clarity, with the Music Videos for each track in the EP embedded where they were played at the event, so folks can read and engage with the videos in one space if they so choose! We begin right after a brief introduction from Antoine & I, picking up after each of us has visually described & positioned ourselves (how we look, what we're wearing, what our backgrounds look like, and where we are in the world).

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT

Antoine (signing, voiced by an interpreter): So your background is very diverse. It's not just one. You have, um, a very diverse background and I was wondering how do you, you know, I know your bio, but you identify yourself as what, could you explain a little bit about yourself?

Natasha: I like to say that I am a child of shipwreck and volcano. It's a way of referring to the island that my parents are from, St. Vincent. It has an active volcano on it and it also, um, has this origin story of a shipwreck where a Dutch [00:07:00] slave ship crashed on the coast, um, and . The indigenous peoples came down to the shore, rescued all of the enslaved Africans on the ship and killed everybody else. and I, you know, I used that as a reference for myself to acknowledge all the complexity of my history, of all of our histories really. But that's a particular element of my own history that's complex.

I also use it as a sort of elemental way of referring to my process too. Volcanoes are just something that feels very, very dear to me. That idea of something just constantly bubbling below the surface and ready to go when the time is right, when it knows it's time to erupt, to bring whatever needs to come forward. And so that, that feels like the best description of me that could exist. [00:08:00] But on paper, I also have things like a PhD in expressive therapy, a board certification in music therapy. I got, you know, I got the fancy letters too,

Antoine: Okay?! Okay!

Uh, I don't have my PhD yet...

Natasha: Go ahead! Okay.?! I could see it. I could see it!

Antoine: when you got your PhD, did you feel like you were ready to go through the journey? Or were, were you already ready before you got your PhD?

Natasha: That's a really good question. I think so I, before I got the PhD, I had a master's in, uh, special education, which is not a term I even like . [00:09:00] Um, but it was indicative of where I was at the time I was working with, uh, within the profession of music therapy at a school for the blind and, um, I really liked doing clinical work and I had started teaching and supervising some music therapy students and the PhD felt like the next thing you do, you know, that you're supposed to do, if you wanna continue teaching and, you know, get the, get the degree and everything. So I didn't fully know what I was signing up for when I got, uh, when I signed up for the PhD.

I did not expect it to be, um. I knew it would be a transformative journey on an educational level, but it got me on like a spiritual level. Like it opened so many parts of me, um, not, not all that were intended I think by the education system. Like some of it was me realizing how messed up some of the systems are.

Um, you know, things that you just think about cognitively, but then you're like, wow, [00:10:00] this is actually really hard for a Black femme to make it in this, in this world. Um, and so I started to realize how much I needed my own creativity as my own medicine more deeply than I ever thought. Like I just thought it was something I was good at and something that I used that helped (other) people.

And then I realized, oh no, I need this. I'm doing this for ME. Um, and so it was like midway through the PhD that I started to really like, get serious about the personal transformation that was happening.

Antoine: Hmm. Yeah. Yeah. I see you're serious.

Natasha: SO serious...

Antoine: you dove in into that academic level and you progressed and you saw yourself and said, [00:11:00] I don't like what I'm seeing here. Yeah. What I see that's in front of me, but I, I want more. Yeah. I want more. I feel like I need more, I, my soul needs to be nourished.

Natasha: Yeah!

Antoine: ... so you took a journey... a soul journey.

Natasha: Yeah.

Antoine: Okay. So it was a spiritual journey. I see. Yeah. And so once you've arrived to that place ... you took a look at yourself...

As your work has progressed, do you [00:12:00] feel like that it's healing?

And who is it healing? Are you, yourself, your community? Who are you healing?

Natasha: Yeah, that's an excellent question too. I, so the short answer is everybody I can reach! (laughs)

But, you know, , the long answer is that, you know, after I got the PhD I had a baby. Um, and that transforms you too. And I started to really think about, um, lineage and what I was passing down and how healing me was also healing my inner child, was healing the child I had just had at that time, was healing ancestral, you know, wounds that went way back, generations back. Um, [00:13:00] and now I have two kids! And I feel like there's never going to be a destination of any kind (because) healing is just a process, um, that I am on and that I invite others to join me on in whatever way holds truth for them.

I hope that the things that, you know, I put together and offer, feel like they're accessible from multiple points, um, not just in like a disability justice way, 'cause I do want that. I do want things to be accessible in that way, but also in a soul kind of way.

Like whatever way you make meaning in the universe, I want you to feel like I'm trying to help you find that.

Like I'm not trying to tell you do it this way. I'm just showing you the path I took and all the other possible paths that you could take.

Antoine: I understand how you're talking about how you found your, your way, you had your spiritual journey, how you healed. Basically. You had that inner transformation to heal yourself. And my question to you is, what was the result of that, especially in terms of how it impacted your work?

(I mean) [00:15:00] thinking of how doctors do tests, I'm wondering how you, I don't even think test is the right word. Let me instead ask you like about your outcomes, like how did you benchmark, how did you use metrics for,

how did you measure what the impact was to your work and the outcome?

Natasha: That's a good question. You got so many good questions! Um, , I, so the process that I engaged in as a researcher is arts-based research. And so I find that . As a creative approach and as a therapist, that those things align really well. So the sort of diagnostic process that an art space researcher uses is to ask questions like, what emerges when or what is the nature of something?

Um, and so I asked myself, . First sort of [00:16:00] what is the nature of healing? What is healing to me? And I would ask that question multiple times of myself. And so I would do something like, um, I. Put my pen down to a piece of paper and write for two minutes without lifting my pen off the paper. And then after that quick write, I might go identify a few words that I had written down that felt critical, and then those words might get turned into a piece of visual art or a song lyric.

And the idea for the album sort of gradually emerged from there because I, I was thinking about, you know, maybe this is a book of poetry, maybe this is a book of visual art and . The more I thought about it, the more I was like, this could be an interactive, like whole body experience if I want it to be!

And so having an album that has described, uh, videos to go with every track, um, so that it can be engaged with in a visual way that it can be [00:17:00] engaged with in a body-based way. Um. Felt really important.

And so the impact was like each time I asked myself a new question, the results got more and more multidimensional, which I think is kind of what healing is too.

That when you start to ask yourself questions about who you are and how you function, um, as much as the idea of functioning can be complex, um, you start to see yourself with more dimensions and you start to see yourself with a little bit more compassion. And you start to be able to move through the world just a little bit more gently because you love you a little bit more.

Antoine: Yeah, I hear you. Absolutely. Wow, that just really is moving. I, I, I feel that, I feel that love. Um, so I was just remembering Yeah, just in terms of, uh. How you, uh, [00:18:00] ...how you help people. That's like really part of your work being a music therapist. Mm-hmm . And I think it's brave work. I mean that whole journey.

I mean, people could easily say, how is music therapy gonna do anything? But you are able to explain it in such a way and. Analyze it in such a way, like I remember you talking about how you create a safe space for people to come together, to hear the music, to just really look at it at a deep level, give feedback on it.

And it's not just music. It's so much more than that...

I'm wondering if you could try to explain to our audience. Um, like what would you say the first thing is that people will see and hear (today)?

Natasha: Yeah, so we've got some music videos to share, um, three of them, um, for the three tracks that were released in November. So a little over a year to get those three tracks out. Um, but the first one that, yeah, it takes the time it takes.

Antoine: Congratulations though! Woo-hoo.

Natasha: Thank you!

Antoine: Go girl.!

Natasha: it takes the time it takes!

Um, the first track is an invitation. A story of sorts to sort of let your mind become comfortable [00:20:00] with this idea of exploration into yourself. So the, the first video is just black background, white text.

Antoine: Yes!

Natasha: So that's track one (laughs)

Antoine: boom. Yes. Wow. And [00:24:00] uh, I have to say that, uh, I could feel the water. I mean, absolutely. I could just feel all the elements in that. I mean. 

As Black people we're one with water, um, just through those times of slavery and all that's happened. And it's like, should we be afraid of our history of everything that's happened or should we reclaim it?

Should we use it as a path to healing?

Natasha: Mm-hmm!

Antoine: So just, wow. Thank you so much for the, uh, what you added in terms of your words. Um. I know you have two more. That's just one of three pieces. Should we perhaps watch it first before you talk about it, or do you wanna talk about it first?

Natasha: We can move to the next one and let the flow sort of go.

I'm, I'm down with that. Um, the, yeah. Love it. 

The next [00:25:00] track, um, is titled Give It a Name, and this track takes things into . Another dimension...

Antoine: ...what are you hoping that people will get from this are, oh, and also do you think that people, um, should move around or should they stay seated?

Natasha: I was just gonna say if people feel comfortable with this next one, um, . To give yourself, like if it helps to bring some touch to your own body, I usually like to go, um, on my chest and then maybe one hand on my diaphragm lower and see what emerges when the music starts. If you feel a torso movement, go with it.

If you feel like just sitting here and feeling your breath, go with it. But really let yourself hear the words on the next one. [00:26:00] Um, and. Take the rest of your body into the journey that your brain already started.

Antoine: Yes. Yeah, absolutely. Let's do it.

Natasha: Awesome.

Natasha: I love watching you move to that. I mean,

Antoine: that was church right there,

That was church . Yes. Well, I hope the audience felt that. 

Natasha: Yeah, I felt it!

Antoine: Yeah. [00:33:00] You know,

I can't remember how many times I've heard it. Mm-hmm . Seen it or feel it. I, I don't know how many times, but every time. Thank you. Thank you.

I feel that we need, we need to have a right to name it. Amen. Hmm. You know, I don't know what the word is, the name, the experience, the, it's okay. It's okay to go on that journey. We need this space to confront our feelings. Mm-hmm . And how do we do that?

And you have led us with the voice and not just. [00:34:00] The voice, but a voice. And it's a guide in that space, and it's a shared space to share my voice. Wow. That was powerful.

Unknown: Hmm.

Antoine: Thank you. That was powerful album, powerful music. It was, it's, it's powerful. Every time, I just process . Healing. Uh, either I'm halfway there or if I'm completely there. Just thank you. Thank you, thank you,

Natasha: thank you. And it, um, what's interesting about that track, I will say, to set up the next one is that this track was always track two. Like I always knew that this was going to be in the center of the EP.

But what I didn't know was that the first [00:35:00] song I wrote for the album would not be the first track! 

So the next track that we're heading into is the first one that I wrote, and it's the one that I shared at the symposium for the Emerge Fellowship, um, in 2023, um, before my second child was born. 

And it was after, uh, after that premiere.

That I had my second child and then everything stalled because I could not figure out what track three was supposed to be. .

Antoine: Right. Understood. Right, right.

Natasha: And it took me forever to realize "you already released track three!" (laughs) This little thing you were working on, on the side, (that) is track one. Um, and I'll share a little bit more about why after we hear this track, but

What I think about Track Three that feels important for people to know is... 

...this is meant to be another doorway. And it's not the end of the album. There's more music that will be coming, um, but this track is meant to be a place where you can contextualize whatever might have come up for you in that last song.

So the title of it is, oh My Many Mothers, 

and it's an ode to the ancestors that we have had, um, and the spirits that move alongside us. Um, whether you conceptualize spirit as something specific or not, um. But yeah, this, this is meant to sort of help us realize that if you had big feelings in that second track, scary feelings, overwhelming feelings, whatever they were, that 

you are part of a massive lineage of people who have lived and who will live, and that you can just [00:37:00] breathe into that and let it carry you.

Antoine: again. Church. Church. 

Natasha: Thanks! 

Antoine: I felt, [00:42:00] is it okay that I share what I'm feeling? Please. Yeah, let's do it. I feel like. I just need to go and walk outside and just ask my ancestors

like, I need support. Yeah. I need, I myself, I need to find out if I'm on the right path. Mm-hmm . Lend me your strength.

Keep me courageous. Is that, is that, is that right?

Natasha: I mean, I think so. , I think it's right. 'cause it's true, you know, to you like it's what you experienced and what you felt led to do or to, to, um, what you felt led [00:43:00] in your spirit to hear. You know, um, and I think that's gonna be different for everybody.

Antoine: Right, right.

Yeah. Because, um, I mean, you were saying so many mothers, and I'm thinking of fathers and not just mine, but others who I've connected with, like me, Antoine, I, you know, obviously I'm deaf and I still. Try to feel that connection to the music and the voices and the singing. And I do feel a connection.

So...what's next for you? 

Because I mean, these songs seriously rock. I mean, thank you big time. So I would love to know what's next for you.

Natasha: It's a great, another great question, . So something that you might not know, Antoine, is that after the year of, uh, completing the music, these songs were technically done in like March of 2024.

I think was when I shared that last one with you, and you were like, congratulations. Thanks. But I sat on it for a really long time because I was making some big life decisions. I stepped . Away from teaching, um, [00:45:00] at the collegiate level and moved entirely into community-based work. So I've got, uh. Some, some private gigs that I have, some groups that I run, um, right.

I want to open up more. I want to have more opportunities for people to engage with the album in a really tangible way. 

Um, and so there will probably be some events coming, some songs, circles coming up, um, where we'll have, uh, opportunities for people to be on camera, you know, with me. To whatever level they're comfortable, um, moving in their own spaces, using their voices in their own spaces, and really sort of encouraged through the album in an even deeper way, um, than, than we did here.

And we will probably also have some like opportunities where people can book with me for one to ones. 

I like to use [00:46:00] song and music as a divination tool of sorts to like sit with what are the songs that are coming up for you over and over again. Um, that like, you'll be out in the grocery store and it'll come on.

And you're like, why is this song following me , let's explore that. You know? I wanna be able to have one-to-one opportunities like that too. Um, so yeah, right now I feel very much in the space of that last track of like, all right, ancestors. It's out now . 'cause I think that's also part of why it took me so long to release.

I was a little bit scared, you know, of like opening that door and being ready for whatever was gonna come through, you know? So even like of the things I listed, there might be more

Antoine: Aw, we don't know yet. I feel that,

Natasha: but I'm open.

Antoine: Yeah. Just amazing work that you do. I mean, I deeply appreciate, [00:47:00] I. The wisdom that comes through your courage, the way you lead in this creative space....

...So yeah, I see a question in the chat.

What is a Sankofa heart? I'd love to hear more about that. 

Natasha

So this is . I love this question. You know how I talked about songs that follow you? The [00:50:00] Sankofa Heart is a symbol that follows me . I, it wasn't made for me. It's not like "Natasha's symbol," but it feels like it sometimes. So the Sankofa um, bird is a familiar figure to a lot of, um.

Black folks, um, particularly those from West Africa or those descended from the western coast of Africa. So usually you'll see it as a bird whose head is angled backwards over its body, um, because the phrase Sankofa means go back and retrieve it, go back and find it. And so I refer to it frequently in healing justice work.

Um. As the practice of bringing from the past, you know, your awareness and looking forward with it, like holding that awareness in you as you look forward. And there are American indigenous cultures that have similar theories as well. So Sankofa is that theory of go back and retrieve it. And the Sankofa bird is the image you usually see, but sometimes [00:51:00] you'll also see

The Sankofa symbol just as the swirls. Um, and they'll be mirrored next to each other in that heart shape. So when they're mirrored like that, they're called the Sankofa heart. But that pattern, um, of the heart and even just of the bird of the half, half the heart, is one that I have tattooed on my ankle and I put it there before I knew what it was, I just was like, "this is pretty."

And then years later I learned what it was, but yeah. Yeah.

Antoine: Wow. That's amazing.

Natasha: Mm-hmm .

Antoine: Yeah... 

Any last words for the audience to hear from you?

Anything I [00:52:00] haven't covered yet that you wanna express?

Natasha: Oh, that's tough. 'cause there's so much to say and also so much to not say too, sometimes you gotta just like let a thing sit and marinate and breathe. Um, but I will say, because I sort of set it up earlier and then hadn't completed the thought, um.

You know, I talked about the order of the tracks, um, and how the order that I originally planned wasn't the order that they came out in. 

I think that's, uh, I think that's part of the, the process too is that, um, where you think you're supposed to start may not be where you're supposed to start. Where you think you're supposed to get, may not be where you think you're supposed to get.

Um, and that. 

The best thing, if there is a best thing you can do for your own healing journey is to just be open to it taking the time that it takes to the path [00:53:00] that it is meant to take, to unfold in front of you and to be okay with not having all the certainty in the world about where you're going or what it's gonna look like when you get there.

You know? I think that's the, mm-hmm

The hardest part and somehow also the most important part. Yeah.

Antoine: Yeah, absolutely.

I believe that...So, uh. I'm just really looking forward to seeing you on [00:54:00] other platforms out in the world. We need to get you out there more.

Natasha: Mm-hmm.

Antoine: And I think that, uh, I just really want people to, um, I just know how, what a, what a partner you are to our community and I wanna thank the Longmore Institute on Disability for having us.

A lot of people don't know, so I'll just say it again: My name is Antoine Hunter Purple Fire Crow, uh, director of the Urban Jazz Dance Company. It's been a tremendous honor to be able to have this conversation with you, Dr. Natasha Thomas. You're a brilliant, beautiful human being and soul. And uh, I just have to say that for all of you who are watching, um.

Please do go to Instagram, go to their website and don't stop the love here on the chat. Keep it going. Um, and you [00:55:00] know, we're all artists, so monetary support helps too. It's all good. You know, we, uh, need to support each other. Absolutely. So again, thank you so much. Just congratulations. Looking forward to seeing more from you.

Natasha: Thank you. Thank you so much, Antoine.

Antoine: And so I wanna turn it back to Emily. 

Emily (with DCC): Wow. What an amazing hype person that was . That was amazing. Thank you so, so much. Natasha. You brought beautiful. Art and care and healing into our community today. Thank you. Thank you. Purple Fire Crow for your mentorship and your support for this project.

Thank you to our access team for making this program accessible to all of us today. Um, and now a bunch of names for the folks behind the scenes who made this possible. This was presented by the San Francisco Disability [00:56:00] Cultural Center, a collaboration led by lc and Lily Cox Haven of Hope with support from the Paul k Longmore Institute on Disability at San Francisco State University, and it's all made possible thanks to financial contributions from the city of San Francisco's human service agencies.

Department of Disability and Aging Services, so we hope that you'll join us for more programs coming your way soon...And that's it. Thanks everyone for being with us today. Good night.

Antoine: Thank you.

Good night everyone. Love to you all.